Boise Guardian

1. TJ said:

What a great idea, Dave !! That would attract people who would not be interested in trying to park downtown and could be greatly expanded from the current, too small, location.

2. Gordon said:

Amen!

3. eric said:

Wouldn't it interfer with the contstruction activities from the new hospital announced a looonngggg time ago? (sarcasm)

4. Wade said:

Great idea, Dave.

5. Sisyphus said:

Excellent idea. While we're at it how about opening up some space to allow some of us frustrated gardeners to grow a plot of veggies. I'd pay rent for such a space if its convenient and any excess I could sell at this place. The timing is perfect. With food and gas prices skyrocketing there will be plenty of folks stuck in Boise this summer who'd gratefully devote the time necessary to bring in a crop.

6. danielo said:

Absolutely YES YES YES. Brilliant idea.

7. Sharon Ullman said:

Great idea and beautiful photos, Fraz!

8. Ryan said:

Dave, this concept is not new to urbania as some contend that the first "Open Market" signaled the birth of the worlds first city, historically speaking.

It would, although, help if you didn't show ONLY 3rd world country's in the image... Perhaps throw a few industrial nations in there next time.

9. Cyclops said:

Well, there you go again Guardian! Haven't you learned better than to mix logic and common sense into the mix whenever discussing the city with the baboon and his band of chimps. They will never approve of anything that might jeopradize CCDC's precious Saturday market. Too bad, too! It's an excellent idea.

10. boisecynic said:

It's a great idea, but the devil is in the details. First, the only available parking is that small section that's been the Bogus Basin Park and Ride. There's no parking on Fairview or Main or 30th.

Maybe the city could reconfigure Fairview and Main with angled parking either permanently or for Saturday market only. Adding parking to Fairview/Main is indeed part of the 30th St Master Plan.

Ryan suggested presenting comparables to first world cities. Here's one, San Diego. At San Diego's near-downtown Sports Arena they have a weekly swap meet. Here's a good pic:

http://www.kobeyswap.com/images/PhotoGallery/pages/kobeyPic.htm

Of course, this would not even be close to the highest and best use of that property. It would be a short term solution only. And then it will sit vacant in the winter just as it does now.

EDITOR NOTE--Seattle's Pike Place is our first photo andLos Angeles has the famous "farmers market." Local state operated markets are all over Georgia and cities throughout the Midwest. Best use is what the community wants--not a councilor's dream of more condos, convention centers, or hotels squeezed into too small a space.

Parking on 7 acres which was formerly a used car lot shouldn't present much of a challenge.

11. dog said:

I wonder if Team Dave would get heat from Albertsons, Winco, Boise Coop, M&W, for such an idea?

My wife was shopping at Pauls in McCall over the weekend and noticed many prices in the produce area cheaper than the Boise big box stores . Amazing.
I think the regular folks who live there probably can't afford Boise prices. She even bought me a nice pork roast that was .20/# cheaper than Winco.

12. Clancy said:

Easy and simple idea. If implemented, the city should let Parks and Rec. administrate it. Park and Rec. deals with multiple properties every day for maintenance. They also are accustom to running "retail" operations and servicing customers.

This property will not always be available. Parks and Rec would be better suited to transferring such an enterprise to a new location whether it be a existing park or a new property.

13. janedoe said:

Great idea for that property. Even if a farmers market was only there for a few years, it would test the idea plus be a great use for the vacant land and keep the weeds down. Lots of available parking there would really be a plus. Consider leasing the property and having a private party organize the market like the 8th street market. I have never seen government really successful in trying to run a business.

14. Cy said:

I'm all about this farmer's market! I love fresh fruits, vegetables, cheeses, meats; all while supporting local farmers that might sprout bakeries and restaurants, etc.

15. Bob Blurton said:

I went to the Farmers market the week before last and found a small pile of radishes, a few bags of lettuce, old gourds, some bread companies and THOUSANDS OF ITEMS OF USELESS JUNK / ART.

Maybe they could have FARMERS at the Farmers Market, ...what a concept.

What needs to happen is for the 'real' Farmers to get on a piece of donated land for a genuine Farmers Market and EXCLUDE the junk vendors. The UberConsumers don't buy local food ...yet, but do clog up the place making it difficult to actually find FOOD.

16. dog said:

Yo Bob,
Been living in Idaho long? Do you even know a "real" Idaho farmer? real Idaho farmers get federal welfare for the crops they grow unlike the farmers/growers at the Saturday Market. Real farmers vote Republican so they can stay on the gubmint dole. Real Idaho farmers use illegal labor if they can get away with it and pass the expense of illegals on to the backs of Mr.Taxpayer.
How bout cookin up some delicious real Idaho farmer sugar beets, a side of hay, some winter wheat, alfalfa, silage, some mega feedlot milk full of growth hormones and antibiotics, to wash it down. That yellow dye commodity brick cheese and dry peas and lentils would hit the spot too.
Bob, you might be the only one at the "real" Idaho farmer market if they bother to have one. Oh, and don't forget your dump truck, they sell by the ton.

17. curious george said:

Been playing Silent Bob for awhile. But I've got to say that a Public Market is an ideal investment for downtown revitalization.

Mr. Blurton -- how disconnected from the land do you have to be to loose sight of the fact that you're not going to find fresh LOCAL vegetables in Boise, in APRIL. Anything there was gleened out of root cellars from last year's crop.

Guardian -- very nice pictures of farmers' markets around the world. But please note that Public Markets are an integral component of every older American settlement. There are many fine PM's in eastern U.S. cities. The Project for Public Spaces published a great series of articles on Public Markets in its October 2005 webzine:

http://www.pps.org/info/newsletter/october2005/market_revival

There are even consultants that will assist communities in establishing such markets, here's one:

http://www.publicmarketconsulting.com/retailing.html

Here's a great article on such markets published by the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis:

http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/br/2005/a/pages/3-article.html

EDITOR NOTE--George, I seem to be missing your point. Are you FER THE IDEA OR AGINNIT? We certainly are NOT against the 8th Street Northender crowd at the Saturday market. The head of the group said on KBOI today there simply was not enough product (or space) to expand that market. Do you favor the weedpatch and status quo at 30th and Fairview/Main?

18. Naomi said:

I heard the interview on KBOI but only parts of the follow-up response from the head of the farmer's market downtown. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out what her objection was. Can anyone summarize it for me?

EDITOR NOTE--We couldn't figure out if she actually was opposed. It sounded like she just wanted to promote the downtown and, if actually opposed, it was for fear of "taking away" from downtown and a sense of loyalty to CCDC. Part of the GUARDIAN proposal is to call their bluff--do folks want a market, or it it just a promotion for downtown like ALIVE AFTER FIVE, FIRST THURSDAY, etc.? A real farmers market would be nice.

19. Tucker said:

I think it would be great to put the piece of land to use as a Farmers Market, but only as an incubator/test to determine if a full time Farmers Market could be viable. I think if would be better served in an permanent location that allowed for both indoor and outdoor areas.

Many of Curious George's and the Guardian's links referenced market that were a mix of actual farm products, restaurants and shops. There needs to be a draw to make it a destination place year round. It also important to provide a mix of product types to extend the hours of operation. The longer you can activate a place throughout the day, the more opportunity you have for a successful project.

A possible permanent location could be the Compton Warehouse building at 9th and Front. I proposed this for my senior thesis in school. Broad Street could be extended as a pedestrian street through the building to provide a link to BODO, the Greenbelt connector on 11th, and the possible new convention center. This building would give an opportunity for indoor and outdoor vendor booths depending on the season. It also is near a parking garage, enlivined shopping district (BODO) and with in walking distance of downtown residential properties.

EDITOR NOTE--Can't resist this one! We are talking apples and oranges. Your BoDo Compton warehouse may have legs (A Simplot family member floated something in the area as well). There simply is no parking available nor room for farm trucks to come and go in the busy corridor which is already crowded with busses and TV rigs far too often.

20. Tucker said:

Dave you are correct it does not nearly have as much area as the 30th & Main location, but I believe it has enough parking and access (it is already setup of for farm trucks on all four sides)

These maps should be at the same scale.
Compton Warehouse site:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.614104,-116.207199&spn=0.005523,0.010042&t=h&z=17
30th & Main site:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.621176,-116.22568&spn=0.005522,0.010042&t=h&z=17

Per your original post, Pikes Place does not have all that much room for farm trucks, buses and TV rigs but it seems to do just fine.
This map is at the same scale as the ones above
http://maps.google.com/maps/mm?ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=47.608782,-122.340794&spn=0.005143,0.010042&t=h&z=17

There are two parking garages less than a block away (granted the rates may be raised)

21. curious george said:

Guardian,

I'm all for a permanent, year-round Public Market for Boise. The closer to downtown restuarants and hoped-for new residential stock the better. Access to the River and the Greenbelt would be a nice amenity for tourists (but not a necessary component for locals), as well as good access for delivery trucks and near-in public parking (or better yet, located a walkable/bikable distance to a strong customer base).

Anybody who says that the Grove/8th Street, the former Lithia Ford site, or the Compton site, is the best location for a Public Market without doing the necessary market & technical research is jumping the gun.

By advocating for a specific site (or none at all) is as Draconian and wrong-headed as any of the stubborn CCDC committments (think, Big Hole).

Since a Public Market is a proven redevelopment tool (and simple good Urbanism), it should be a simple step to ask CCDC & Boise to hire a specialist to look at existing market conditions, probable costs, and multiple sites before building a case for any further public investment in the idea.

And, before you disparrage any discussion of public indebtidness -- successful Public Markets are (by nature) public investments, as critically necessary as schools, water treatment plants, and roadways. They provide a level of good urbanism, good public stewardship, and sales venues for small local businesses that the private sector has NEVER achieved.

There's a reason why Public Market's in cities like Buffalo and Philidelphia:

http://www.forgottenbuffalo.com/historicpoloniadistrict/broadwaymarket.html

http://www.readingterminalmarket.org/

Have survived for over a Century and grown to become the heart of sustainable neighborhoods. Though a strong component of such markets, stalls have never been limited to only food products -- Arts & Crafts, Pots & Pans, Toys & Games, Hot Dog Stands & Fine Restaurants have always been a strong component of such venues (even if Mr. Blurton considers them useless junk). Even street theater should be encouraged.

Having seen Tucker's senior thesis (I think I was even an invited critic - okay, maybe uninvited), the Compton site (especially with a re-established local street grid along Broad to 11th Street -- as a truck service drive) is a very viable candidate site. The argument that there isn't sufficient public parking around the Compton site must be a facetious remark - right?

22. Cyclops said:

Unfortunately, we will drag the Saturday market and the CCDC kicking and screaming down every inch of this path. As invigorating as it is to actually discuss a positive for the city,The leadership in the city would NEVER do anything to jeopordize the downtown core area. This is a great idea that will come to fruition in spite of, not with the help of, the downtown core interests.

23. dog said:

The Comptons warehouse would be a perfect downtown location. The trucks would have plenty of axis to unload since they would need to do it very early in the morning or the night before. That building has a freight elevator indoors as well to access the basement which could make a cool Boise Underground type of gig. What is wrong with parking in the empty lot next to it? It makes much more sense to build a Farmers Market, sustaining many businesses than a giant hotel/convention center. The city will crush it with over regulation ,safety issues,etc. making the rent space too expensive for vendors. They will make sure something as progressive as a permanent farmers market will fail. Remember, these are the nimrods who can't fix the hole in downtown Boise. They are spawn of the ones who brought us Boise Redevelopment in the 70's. Same mind set, same gene pool. Simplot S16 folks won't let it happen because they are afraid someone might make a dime and besides they couldn't make a successful development if they tried. Goes back to the gene pool.